There's been heated discussion on this wiki if we should mention anything about Clover's mental health on her article because the game does not make a connection between her actions and mental illness. AlexShepherd, who supports keeping the mental health section, has recently edited the section so that it sticks to "only canon information".
http://zeroescape.wikia.com/wiki/Clover_Field?diff=prev&oldid=50083
Please take a look at the edit and vote yes or no on if we should keep this information on her article.
It is still a theory though. Wiki's are supposed to be reliable sources with canon information, not speculation. This includes the diagnosis of Mira's character. Like I said many times before, we aren't professionals, and we don't personally know Mira.
Also, even if there are some in game facts that support a theory, it's still a theory. By putting theories and speculation on the wiki we're just hurting our reputation, and that's why I think it should be removed.
It honestly just feels we're repeating ourselves over and over again.
I recently rewrote a few parts with this conversation in mind.
"Wiki's are supposed to be reliable sources with canon information, not speculation."
This is technically an opinion. Wikis can serve a multitude of purposes, even speculation. It's just that some wikis have differing rules about speculation and its leniency.
Also, I want to make it clear that wikis don't (necessarily) exist for the purpose of "having a good reputation" or "being liked". While that's a nice bonus, it's not the sole purpose or highest priority of wikis.
You could try and reframe tons of shit as "speculation" if you really wanted to.
Technically speaking, Akane being Zero is only "heavily, heavily, heavily implied". All she ever says is something about being "less than Zero", "not yet Zero" and other non-direct lines, and the sequels write around ever calling her Zero (I can't fathom why). But the implication is clearly there to lead you to that conclusion.
You can't write an article on fiction from an entirely objective stance because fiction is made to be interpreted.
Anyway, if I was writing the article, it would be better to instead mention the similarities between, say, Mira's conditions and real-world conditions. "Mira's mental state heavily resembles that of [x illness]." Or "Clover has been shown to have violent outbursts under pressure on [x] separate occasions".
AlexShepherd: "What's "credible" or not is opinionated, and each individual article is different. I wouldn't say that such a thing as a "credible" wiki exists because of this. What I do believe is that wikis are allowed to use phrases like "possible", "could be", "may", "imply", etc, and your opinion that wikis can't or shouldn't use these phrases is silly."
When we talked about this before, you considered Wikipedia as credible and professional source of information and said that all wikis aspire to be like it. If so, the fact is that they don't allow speculation, so that would completely go against your idea.
"Yes, Mira is psychologically sick, and a psychopath. One of the key words advertising ZTD was "psychopath". It's obvious it's a reference to Mira."
She could potentially be a psychopath, but what if she's suffering from something else that is causing her behavior? The fact is that we don't know because the game doesn't specify her condition, assuming she even has one.
"They are supported by facts said in-game."
Just because there is evidence for something, it doesn't mean that it is true. Causation does not imply correlation. The game does not straight up say that she has this condition, so we can't assume that she has it.
"It's not trying "to disguise itself as reliable info" or "disguise" itself as anything, it's just a heavily, heavily, heavily implied possibility which is marked as such and inferred."
Even if something is heavily implied, that doesn't make it true or even a valid statement. If we choose to keep that section on the article, then yes, we are in fact disguising a heavily implied theory as canon information, which is not the right thing to do.
"I'm not trying to "insult people who disagree with my beliefs", I'm insulting people who clutch at straws and find the most ridiculous and absurd reasons to hate on wikis."
I don't think it's that people are hating the wiki, they're just trying to help us make it a better place for reliable information for all Zero Escape fans. Remember that this isn't a place that is supposed to appeal to just you, we're supposed to try to appeal to all fans of the series. Oh and calling people who don't like speculation on the wiki unreasonable idiots is not an example of insulting people against your beliefs? Please don't try to justify it, just don't do it.
"Yes, it is and yes it does. It's just your opinion it doesn't."
Well, the fact that you think it does belong on the wiki is an opinion in itself, so you can't really use that argument here.
"Actually, regarding the blunted affect. Mira was told she was perceived as "unfeeling", which means there are times when others have perceived her as emotionless. This IS literally reduced affect display. This is worth mentioning on her article."
Without the game stating that she has RAD, who are we to say that she has reduced affect display rather than just simply being apathetic? Again, we don't know, so it doesn't belong in her article.
1337doom:"You could try and reframe tons of shit as "speculation" if you really wanted to. Technically speaking, Akane being Zero is only "heavily, heavily, heavily implied". All she ever says is something about being "less than Zero", "not yet Zero" and other non-direct lines, and the sequels write around ever calling her Zero (I can't fathom why). But the implication is clearly there to lead you to that conclusion. You can't write an article on fiction from an entirely objective stance because fiction is made to be interpreted. Anyway, if I was writing the article, it would be better to instead mention the similarities between, say, Mira's conditions and real-world conditions. "Mira's mental state heavily resembles that of [x illness]." Or "Clover has been shown to have violent outbursts under pressure on [x] separate occasions"."
Actually, June does say in-game that she is Zero, as shown on the screenshot at the right. That is an example of the game directly telling us a fact and is the reason that June being Zero is not speculation.
There is no need to mention similarities between Mira's condition and real world conditions because we don't know exactly what her condition is, or if she even has one.
Wikipedia is extremely different from Wikia in many ways because it acts as a "main" wiki which can't go into detail in many areas. For example, Wikipedia doesn't also have Trivia sections or Galleries really either - that doesn't mean I want Trivia/Galleries on Wikia to be removed. Even Wikipedia doesn't ban "may", "could be", "possible", "imply". Wikipedia isn't 100% facts, it also lists a lot of notable possibilities.
Mira is obviously a psychopath, and she obviously has a condition. Ask Uchikoshi if he intended Mira to be one, if she has any other mental illnesses, and ask about Clover. I don't have Twitter.
"calling people who don't like speculation on the wiki unreasonable idiots is not an example of insulting people against your beliefs? Please don't try to justify it, just don't do it."
Don't twist what I said. I NEVER said those who don't like "speculation" idiots. I'm not going to repeat myself because you can't properly read what I wrote.
"Without the game stating that she has RAD, who are we to say that she has reduced affect display rather than just simply being apathetic? Again, we don't know, so it doesn't belong in her article."
She has RAD because she was told, "ever since she was a child" that she was "ALWAYS" "unfeeling". I'd argue Mira is both apathetic and has RAD. The Wikipedia article on apathy says: "Apathy should be distinguished from reduced affect, which refers to reduced emotional expression but not necessarily reduced emotion." Both apply to Mira.
Mira's mental conditions are a HUGE part and aspect of her character, extremely notable and relevant, and there's sufficient evidence in-game to mention psychopathy and RAD. Remember that scene where she blatantly murders Eric and a child, smiles and laughs about it? Honestly, it still sounds you're giving free passes to serial killers.
"We don't even know if Mira has a mental condition"
WOW, REALLY? After her serial killer count of 18 and everything you watched of her in-game, you say, "we don't even know if Mira has a mental condition." *facepalm*
We may go into more detail, but that doesn't mean that we should allow speculation and theories.
Also, just because Mira was apathetic as a child doesn't mean she had RAD. Also, she was infected with Radical 6 in that timeline where she kills Eric and Sean. In the end, Mira having RAD is a theory and, in my opinion, shouldn't be on the wiki.
We're not giving free passes on serial killers if we don't include RAD. We don't want to include it as it is speculation, not because we're giving Mira a free pass. Just because she acts like that in the game doesn't mean it correlates to the real world. It's just a theory, and therefore, shouldn't be on the wiki.
True about Zero, but that was still only one example. Fiction still works on implication and speculation. That's the whole deal. Mentioning how Mira or Clover's minds resemble [x thing] is completely objective, doesn't make any claims as to whether they actually have [x thing] and is completely normal for wikis to do. It's never "confirmed" that the Memo function in VLR fading away was representative of Sigma's memory, but we have that listed here because it's a natural assumption to make. Same with comparing Schrodinger's Cat to different parts of the game. If you really want to remove all forms of analysis from the wiki, you have to do so across the board, not just with "uncomfortable" topics like mental illness.
If you see Wikipedia as the standard of documentation, it does this stuff too. Check out the Serial Experiments Lain page, and scroll down to the themes section and one of the things it mentions is that dissociative identity disorder is a major theme in Lain. At no point is Lain ever "confirmed" to have it, and I can make arguments for and against that, but Wikipedia still mentions how the story is invoking that mental illness as a theme. Analysis (it's not speculation, it's analysis) is totally normal for wikis to document to a certain extent.
"Also, just because Mira was apathetic as a child doesn't mean she had RAD."
You're denying what she says in-game:
"EVER SINCE I was little, I've ALWAYS been told I'm UNFEELING."
It wasn't only when she was a child, it's throughout her whole life. Throughout her life, she's ALWAYS been perceived as UNFEELING. This IS RAD.
"Also, she was infected with Radical 6 in that timeline where she kills Eric and Sean."
So? What's your point? "Murdering other people" is not a known symptom of Radical-6. It's obvious she kills them because she's a psychopathic serial killer, not a victim of a disease. Even if murder was a symptom of Radical-6, it still doesn't erase Mira's murders before the Decision Game.